Vocalist.org archive


From:  natural@w...
Date:  Sun Apr 9, 2000  1:42 am
Subject:  Re: [vocalist-temporary] Bel Canto technique...


At 09:32 AM 04/08/2000 -0300, Caio Rossi wrote:
>I wrote:
>
> >> pure vowels are produced with no
> >> obstacles in the mouth,
> >> so that the air can flow freely through it.
>
>and Isabelle commented:
>
> >I think this is wrong. I find no difference in my [y]
> >and [i] besides the shape of the lips. Both have the
> >high [i] tongue, and neither has any obstacle in the
> >mouth. In fact, the production is EXACTLY the same,
> >with the lips rounded forward for [y].
> >
> >So I would say that [y] is just as "pure," by your
> >definition, as [i] or any of the other 7 Italian
> >vowels.
>
>and I'm talking back :-) :
>
>OK...but, don't you think that they must have different phonetic symbols for
>some reason? The rounding of the lips is not everything. If your /i/ above
>is the same /i/ as in 'beat', not as in 'bit', so you should bear in mind
>it's actually a dyphthong ( assuming you're a native speaker of English ),

Caio: I think [y] in the previous thread refers to the French u
or German ü, both of which are pure vowels, and not the
English/Spanish semivowel y. I'm pretty sure no one was claiming
semivowels as pure vowels. For singing purposes, semivowels are
consonants.

But, getting back to your current point: Sometimes you can't
believe everything you read in a book on phonetics. In
particular, as a native speaker of American English, and a
linguist, I'm positive there's little or no glide in my
pronunciation of "beat," "be," or "beef," and such glide as
there is is either caused by anticipation of the following
consonant or by a sort of mimicking of the pitch pattern. In
particular there's no tendency to glide up to a y at the end,
since the main vowel is already in that position, but rather to
fall away to an uh, in anticipation of the t in "beat" or the f
in "beef".

If there's any tendency to glide INTO the vowel, it happens too
fast for me to detect in myself, and if I try to do it slowly, with
an on-glide, it quickly turns into something that's not English,
sounding rather like the Russian "Byt'" (to be) and then with
further slowing, it starts sounding somewhat like the English
word "bite."

Nevertheless, my "beat" is completely distinct from my "bit."
There is no doubt in my mind that the glide, if it occurs in
some speakers, is due to a slow-moving tongue, and phonemically
inoperative, and that the operative factor is the (highest)
position of the tongue. (High for "beat, medium-low for "bit"),
though there's also a difference in the position and tension of
the lips, which is not phonemic in itself, but aids in
enunciation, and becomes important in singing those words, but
for tone rather than recognition. Also, if angry, one might
pronounce "bit" with the lip position of "beat," and in so doing
sound angry or tense, without affecting the recognition of the
sound - as long as the tongue is in the right place.




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